by Dominique Godrèche
AN ENCOUNTER WITH JIMMIE DURHAM
AT THE
58TH INTERNATIONAL ART BIENNALE OF VENICE
“May you live in interesting times”
_______
a Paris Writers News interview
by Dominique Godrèche
Jimmie Durham, American poet, activist, artist, attended the International Venice art Biennale, «May you live in interesting times», curated by Ralph Rugoff, to receive the Golden Lion Award for lifetime achievement.
Born in the United States into a Cherokee family, Jimmie Durham studied art at the École des Beaux-Arts in Geneva, and had his first solo shows in 1965. He later joined the American Indian Movement during the confrontation with US federal forces at Wounded Knee in 1973, and became Director of the International Indian Treaty Council and its representative to the UN during the 1970s. He moved to Cuernavaca, Mexico in the 90’s, and to Europe in 1994. He now resides in Naples, Italy, and Berlin, where, with his wife Maria Thereza Alves, they created a design company, Labinac, supporting the crafts of Latin American Indigenous populations, and the access to education for Indigenous students. While in Venice, he shared his thoughts with Dominique Godrèche about the Golden Lion Award, Native American art, Beauty, and living in Europe.
Dominique Godrèche: How do you feel about receiving the Golden Lion at this Venice Biennale?
Jimmie Durham: They probably think I am going to die soon! (laugh) I am very honored to be recognized, not as a prize recipient for making art, but for seriously making art. This is my 7th Biennale. I love being in big group shows, around other artists, and this art show exhibits so many people: it gives a chance to see what is going on in the world. I always loved Venice, where I taught art and history at the university: it is a beautiful city. So I am always happy to be here.
How did you select the pieces for the Arsenale, and Giardini?
Ralph Rudolph came to Berlin, and told me what he wanted for the Arsenale and the Giardini: I had the skulls of animals from my previous show in Zurich, a year ago, which he was pleased with. Then I told him about a new piece made of serpentine stone for the Giardini, which he approved.
The eyes of the skulls, shown at the Arsenale, are made of Murano glass: did you work there?
I had a show a few years ago at the Querini Stampalia Museum, and I used broken Murano glass; as I have a friend who works there, and took his left over. I love broken glass, the pieces which are not quite “good”. In Murano they can do anything with glass, except a not good looking piece! Their glass work is too nice, it is made for the bourgeois; I love this beauty, but I know that you cannot make art with beauty, unless you are a really good artist! Broken glass has so much energy: it vibrates in front of my eyes.
Can you elaborate about “art cannot be realized with beauty”?
Art is an intellectual enterprise. I don’t know what is meant by “creative”: I cannot create anything, but I can change the language, by talking, or creating poetry. -My first life was poetry-. But I don’t create language: I make poems, I answer an interview. As artists, we know that what we do in art is not translatable into language, and you cannot say what you mean. Art is important for human society; we need it as much as we need language.
But why did you mention that art cannot be beauty?
Because it is too easy, too incomplete. If I write or read a poem only made of beautiful words, it is not enough: there needs to be more complexity. And beauty takes over the complexity.
Since how long have you been living in Europe?
We moved here in 1994, from Mexico, and I had previously lived in Geneva for 4 years. I never feel at home anywhere, but I want to be able to participate to the intellectual and artistic life in Europe. As the United States is a colonial country, where people are racist, violent, not interested by culture, - just by money-. So now we have fame and money as a standard, and it comes from America. When you hear about an American writer, actor…You only hear about how much he makes: that is not the right standard of success, as money has nothing to do with it. But that is the colonial idea of success; and is not good at all for art. In Europe it is still not as bad.
Why did you choose to live in Mexico?
We lived in Cuernavaca, as the most magical man, Ivan Illich, was there; and his ideas are more and more meaningful.
And why Naples today?
I never imagined to live in Napoli; we were living in Berlin and Rome. But a friend brought us to Napoli, and we fell in love with the city!
Do you identify yourself as Native American?
Yes, I am a Cherokee; but it is not a big deal. It becomes a big deal when craziness, or the media pick it up. What is important is that I never stopped being an activist and an artist since long ago, and I don’t make a separation between the two: if you are an activist and an artist, you don’t choose one over the other.
Do you think that your Native American identity reflects in your art work?
The same way Marcel Duchamp’s identity reflects in his art work. When we lived in New York, my art work was about the situation in the United States and the Native culture. Because we are colonized, we cannot make decisions on our own, and it is intolerable. I did not make art to instruct people; I made art that would be liked, and at the same time show a reality abou racism. It is a sardonic type of art, with as much humor as possible, to show the stupidity of racism in everyday life; but I would not say it is Native American as such.
Would you consider living in the United States again?
No. It is too frustrating to do art there, as the standard is money, and you cannot get beyond that; and it applies to everything.
Are you still concerned with Native American art, and issues?
I never was interested by Native contemporary art from the point of view of the United States: we are cheated by colonialism, and told, as Native American artists, that we should portray our lives, or ways of being, which means being oppressed, not free. And that gets boring very quickly, as they want us to create their romanticized image of ourselves; which is a cheat, and also not good for us.
An issue frequently mentioned by Native American artists…
Yes, but it is a difficult situation, to make art there, and fight colonialism: it is a hard task. You cannot do it directly; and not in America.
Will you continue to live in Berlin and Napoli?
I do not like to be “at home”. Berlin is like Los Angeles: big, spread out, nowhere. So it is a good base. I like to live in a place until I reach a point where I hate it so well that I have to leave.
Dominique Godrèche, ethno psychologist, writer, journalist, author of "Santana", Albin Michel editions, Awardee of the literary Prix de la Villa Medicis Hors les Murs, is a contributor for various medias (Télérama, le Monde Diplomatique, Geo...) She has published "Mad about God", "the Jerusalem Syndrome", in Paris Match, “Ultra orthodoxy and fashion”, in Le Point, “Religious fiction and Reality” in ça m’intéresse.
