In November 2013, French terrorism expert Marc Trévidic, head examining magistrate in charge of France's anti-terrorism unit and author of numerous books about Islamists in France, spoke with Dominique Godrèche about the evolution of Islamist terrorism in France and the world, which he examines in his book Terrorists: The Seven Pillars of Unreason . The original interview was published in French. In light of the attacks on Paris this Friday, we republish excerpts from the Trévidic-Godrèche interview here in English.
Marc Trévidic, French terrorism expert, interview by Dominique Godreche
for Paris Writers News
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Marc Trévidic is a French "juge d’instruction" or examining magistrate at the anti-terrorist unit of the Paris "Tribunal de Grande Instance". His book, "Terroristes, les 7 piliers de la déraison" (Terrorists: the seven pillars of unreason") describes the psychological profiles of Islamist terrorists. Blending essay, document, and novel, Trévidic draws a portrait of a disoriented youth, in search of a “righter ” ideology, drawn into a deadly system, and he decodes the mental processes underlying the terrorist’s path towards violence. After the publication of “Au Coeur de l’antiterrorisme” (In the Heart of Anti-terrorism) in 2010, Trévidic continues his description of “geo societal” complexities, and the consequences of the identity crisis, while analyzing the violence and the dangers of its propagation, in the Internet era.
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Dominique Godrèche: What are the main differences between the French and American procedures of investigation?
Marc Trévidic: For financial reasons, they apply naturally: France has fewer resources. But also, there is a historical factor, because we have been dealing with Islamist terrorism for a long time. The United States have more resources, and we essentially rely on team work, and the quality of its individuals, in the context of a judicial system lacking financial support; so our success resides in the capacity of the staff. A French judge thoroughly knows his case. The Americans share their tasks, having a fragmented view, as each agent works on a specific issue. That being said, approaches are now beginning to merge : they also have specialized investigation units, and coordination with prosecutors.
DG: You describe something new, The Taqiyya, or the art of dissimulation, as well as the women's status and the role of the Internet: is geography no longer a factor in Islamist terrorism, because of new tactics of dissimulation and communication on a global scale ?
MT: The Taqiyya, or "do Jihad where you are" is, indeed, a strategy in which the individual aims to not stand out from the society in which he lives, to be as odorless and colorless as possible, and it is not really a novelty. Even if we notice a resurgence of the Taqiyya speech today, terrorists were always trained in Taqiyya, as it enables them to blend into the crowd, and to pass for an unbeliever during the time of an operation. What is new today, is the presence of women, given that they cannot go "into the field" and talk to men, many women are very active on the Internet, as it is easier to find oneself behinda keyboard. So the women's role in the jihadist world stays limited primarily to an Internet presence, or as an administrator.
DG: But you also explain the enrollment in these movements thanks to the search of marriages, arranged by Internet?
MT: That too is not new, but expanding, as is the radicalization of a segment of the French youth. A young woman looking for a husband, will use the Web, because she does not leave her home, so it is her only meeting place. But if she visits radical sites, she has greater chances of finding a very radicalized husband. Sites specialized in marriages do exist, but also private sites, where people can chat. It is therefore not necessary to consult marriage sites to find a partner.
DG: Have you observed an increase of Islamist sites in French?
MT: The main sites remain in Arabic, or in English, as they are produced by Arabic networks; there are also translation services that give access to jihadists contents in French. A media Jihad has also started in 2002, where media “brigades” in Iraq film the death of women and children, to portrait Muslims as victims. Finally, Al Qaida runs a structure that chooses the official messages of terrorists Internet sites. All that is very structured, and organized.
DG: In this new book, did you chose a mix between the essay, the document, and the novel because you have touched a point where you feel capable of an in-depth understanding of the Islamist psychology?
MT: The first book described the anti-terrorism phenomenon; this one is oriented towards the terrorists. And it came together when I discovered the double effect of the short story, which allows you to feel, and share the information. I could not have done it without using the short story, and its particular illustration of information.
DG: Is that why you chose to publish the “Diary of a Moujahid”?
MT: indeed. It is a fictional journal, with an insider’s view: after having met dozens of cases of young jihadists, I end up having in mind a pretty clear profile, and to express it, I used a literary trick, integrating factual information into short stories.
DG: So those texts are conceived on the basis of true stories ?
MT: Yes, and it is true for all the short stories I wrote, because some elements recur frequently: I have seen dozens of people like Stephane’s mother. From 1994 until today, my knowledge of these cases has continued to grow: with fifteen stories in mind, I just grab my pen and write !
DG: You describe the attack committed in the CIA, in Khost, and the mental process of the agent, a Jordanian doctor, during the aggression. But how to interpret the naivety of his boss, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, who, while organizing his birthday party, will become his victim, and perish during the celebration?
MT: This event, inspired by real facts, corresponds to a key period, when the prospect of capturing major figures, like Ben Laden, was dangled before us: it is during those moments that the defenses fall, and that we need to be careful. I think there lies American’s weak point: when they want something too much, in exchange for a few promises, they let down their guard. I believe one should not desperately want something at any cost. France would never have focused on one particular Islamist leader. But there is, in the US, a “Reward” and “Most wanted” FBI tradition: it is cultural. In France, we know that one leader will replace another, so the person itself is not that important. Americans created Ben Laden during Al Qaida’s period, making him the number one enemy. But for the radicalized youth, this enemy becomes their role model. It was the case for Mesrine; and it is dangerous, because the youth tends to identify with one particular individual.
DG: But does the Islamist phenomenon present the same specificities in the United States?
MT: In the US, the attacks are executed by isolated individuals; it generally does not consist of organized actions, but rather a Home Made terrorism. The potential of micro groups capable of turning to action is identical, even with the reinforcement of security measures, because with the Internet, the phenomenon exceeds local events.
DG: The geography of terrorism no longer exists?
MT: No: thanks to Internet, it is everywhere, the frontiers are not solid, and the United States is not safe, with a dozen successful attacks that have been committed on its soil. The US represents the #1 enemy, having been the first to intervene in the conflicts.
DG: But you also explain the perception of the US as a concentration of anti-Islamic values : money, materialism, etc. Driving this hate ?
MT: Indeed, as Israel’s ally and as a super power, it is the only power capable of stopping the Islamists’ expansion. For Al Qaida, the USA is [seen as] the only ones to have been in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, and then in Iraq: on the web, propaganda has referenced Guantanamo, and their presence in Iraq etc. As time went by, the USA became hated by radicals. But we [France] are not far behind!
DG: do the members of a group fall under the sway of those influences because of some sort of guru, their leader?
MT: Yes. They function according to schemas based on religious sources, implying the presence of an emir, a reference to whom they swear allegiance. To unite a group, leadership, discipline, and obedience to strict rules, based on an ancestral model, are needed: and it is for the best, as these typical models help us during our investigations. It is more difficult when it concerns individual jihad.
DG: Like the case of that “dangerous nice guy” you described, who displays a singular, and schizophrenic attitude, exasperating your colleague?
MT: It is a very common case. Today we have, on one side, the impulsive, verbally violent, disorganized youth, who cannot control his nerves; and, then, individuals with a soft voice, calm and focused, with a religious culture, a goal, and a determination. These last ones are cold, do not show themselves as violent, and have more impact : they are the most dangerous ones. They proselytize for jihad, - often in prisons-, a perfect recruitment spot: the young people in a failure situation, having nothing to do, are easy to manipulate.
DG: Is that how they manage to advocate a culture of death, and destruction?
MT: But for them, death is only a passage. Death of others is legitimate, as they are just impious; so it is allowed to kill them. Islamist terrorists think killing is normal, lawful. The issue of good or evil is not questioned when related to the destruction of “unbelievers”. Some keep on their computers collections of portraits, pictures of dead martyrs. “I wish to be like him, dead as a martyr”: that is what drives them to keep this type of photos.
DG: Do women react the same way?
MT: It is less predictable : because they are not informed about what will happen to them in paradise! But they are the victims of the same ideological bombardment.
DG: You are describing a fundamental identity crisis?
MT: A man, or a woman having trouble to deal with modern life, will feel protected by Islam in the same way. And a woman knows that if she gives up her freedom, she will be taken care of by a man.
DG: But what if he dies?
MT: Yes; but she will find another one! And she will not have to work, will always be surrounded by the family… Without any problem to solve.
DG: Your portrait of the Islamist factor today describes a real societal gangrene?
MT: It is the trendy ideology, the only one on the market: in the past, we used to turn towards Marxism, Communism… Why does a Catholic become a radicalized Islamist today? Well, it is the fashionable ideology among young people searching for themselves, or questioning the quest of a “fairer” life. And that goes for all of Europe. That is why it is absolutely necessary to eradicate the violence on the Internet. Because as long as we do not act about it on a global scale, it will go on.
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Other books by Marc Trévidic
Marc Trévidic: At the head of France's anti-terrorism prosecution unit (juge d'instruction du pôle anti-terroriste), Marc Trévidic dealt with high profile cases including terrorist attacks in France, the Karachi attacks, Tibhirine monks case, and Rwandan genocide. He is a specialist in the fight against terrorism and the author of numerous books on the subject: Au coeur de l'antiterrorisme, Terroristes : les septs piliers de la déraison, Qui a peur du petit méchant juge ?
Dominique Godrèche, ethno psychologist, writer, journalist, author of "Santana", Albin Michel editions, Awardee of the literary Prix de la Villa Medicis Hors les Murs, is a contributor for various medias (Télérama, le Monde Diplomatique, Geo...) She has published "Mad about God", "the Jerusalem Syndrome", in Paris Match, “Ultra orthodoxy and fashion”, in Le Point, “Religious fiction and Reality” in ça m’intéresse... About religious violence and pathology, messianic groups and extremism in the Middle east. Specialist of contemporary beliefs, she has participated to the collective publication « Enquete sur » , (Albin Michel), with a text on Druze beliefs today, lectured at the Druze Conference ofOxford, and an interview of Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz, the translator of the Talmud in French.
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